Neurobiology and Narcissism
Did that person intend to bump into me? Or were they just daydreaming? Today Dr. Josh Stout discusses the difference between narcissistic and non neurotypical behavior, and how media, society and our very culture misses the point.
Please scroll down for links below the transcript. This is lightly edited AI generated transcript and there may be errors.
Eric 0:00
This is what you've been talking about. You know, for this entire time on this podcast is that we need we need to help each other.
Dr. Josh Stout 0:08
We absolutely do. And, you know, I think we have an obligation to do it. And I think we have not been meeting that obligation. And, you know, we we we do not get together as groups and figure out what we need for the people in the group to succeed. [Yeah] We often do the exact opposite. We get together as groups and we figure out how to single out people and make sure they don't succeed and that is in many ways our approach to anyone that is different. But I really wanted to separate out these ideas that are, that are not well understood within psychology. We're just telling a story about narcissism that I think is, you know, associated with the whole Judeo-Christian ethos and Greek hubris and morality, and that there's actually something that's happening with some people's brains that is is a separate issue and could be conflated with it and really shouldn't be.
Eric 1:16
Today is Friday, October 11th, and it is another episode of Mind Body Evolution. How are you, Josh?
Dr. Josh Stout 1:23
I am well, Eric. I have been living my life and not doing podcasts for a while, but I thought we could get another one out there.
Eric 1:33
There's been a lot going on in the world.
Dr. Josh Stout 1:35
There really has been.
Eric 1:36
Let's just acknowledge the hurricanes and the people who are without power…
Dr. Josh Stout 1:42
But just seeing politics. I want to focus on that because of actually the problem. I'm going to talk today.
Acknowledging other people's problems is something that narcissists don't do and talk about. You are starting off with other people's problems and I now have to ignore that and talk about narcissism instead. And so this is this is already a problematic discussion and it's the nature of narcissism to be a problematic discussion because you essentially start talking about yourself right away.
Eric 2:15
Yes. Well, I did think that since we hadn't spoken in a few weeks and America has been slammed by natural disasters, that acknowledging that would be.
Dr. Josh Stout 2:24
Well, I think part of the problem is both. political narcissism on the part of individuals, but also cultural narcissism on the part of our culture.
Eric 2:36
And this isn't this a cycle. Don't these two things feed each other?
Dr. Josh Stout 2:41
I think they do. But I want to talk a little bit about… not politics.
Eric 2:49
I think that would be refreshing for everyone.
Dr. Josh Stout 2:51
Exactly. Yeah. I think it would be interesting to think about really what what narcissism is and sort of a little bit of a history and then try and talk about what's really going on in the brain.
Eric 3:02
Because it does it does seem like, you know, narcissists are now practicing out in the open on a sheet unashamedly.
Dr. Josh Stout 3:12
Yes. And is it narcissistic to say you're not one? I don't know. It's difficult.
Eric 3:18
That becomes a tautology, doesn't it?
Dr. Josh Stout 3:20
Well, it would also be narcissistic to say you are one, which is one of the problems. It's a very ill defined word. And it really has been for a long time. And it's directly related to the sort of Christian ideas of pride being a deadly sin and the Greek ideas of hubris leading to your downfall. When you say you're equal to the gods, the gods will then crush you. And so these have been within our culture for a very long time because people who are essentially seeing themselves above their society are dangerous to society. And so we've we've seen this in our mythology and our religion for quite some time. But it wasn't coined as a it wasn't coined as a term in psychology. Well, until psychology was existing.
Eric 4:14
Narcissism.
Dr. Josh Stout 4:15
In the 19th century.
Eric 4:16
Actual psychology. It's a psychological term that was created by psychology.
Dr. Josh Stout 4:21
Right. And psychology was inventing itself. So Havelock Ellis in 1889 was thinking about these myths, just like Freud was thinking about these myths in the turn of the early 20th century and what it means to be totally self-obsessed. So Narcissus was a very beautiful young man who loved his own beauty and the nymph Echo.
Eric 4:51
Help me for a second. Narcissus. Where are we?
Dr. Josh Stout 4:54
We're in ancient Greece. I think. I think we're on the slopes of Mount Ida. I'm not sure. We're on a mountain.
Eric 4:59
In ancient Greece.
Dr. Josh Stout 5:00
We're in ancient Greece. Greek mythology. And we're on a mountain on the Peloponnese somewhere. And the. The. The nymphs that live on this, this mountain include Echo. And Echo was left as they look out by Zeus to warn him when Hera was coming. And Hera caught Echo and cursed Echo to only repeat what other people say, which if you imagine a narcissist, would love that. That's perfect for a narcissist only repeating what you say. And so Echo fell in love with Narcissus Beauty, but failed to communicate successfully with him because he wasn't listening to her and he couldn't understand what she was trying to say because he could. She could only repeat back what he was saying. It should have been a perfect relationship, but it didn't work out. And so instead he sat and stared at his own reflection in the water and basically was cursed by the gods for having turned down this beautiful, slightly mentally challenged nymph.
And he was turned into into the flower narcissus based basically a, you know, a daffodil. And they sit by water and they're beautiful and they are, you know, wonderful little flower. So it was echo. And narcissus are often seen as these sort of emblematic of a secluded rocky grotto where you hear the echoes of the water splashing and there's a little flower looking at itself in the water. But if you think about it, it is truly a tragedy of of not being able to communicate, of being only repeat back what someone can say, and then they're.
Eric 6:46
Completely separate from everyone else and everything else.
Dr. Josh Stout 6:49
And then not being listened to. So both of them have that separation. And so this was the idea of, of, of narcissism. And so the early the early psychologists saw it as a sexual perversion and that it involved sexual love with oneself and that Freud saw it as a developmental stage and that essentially in the, you know, the polymorphic perverse baby who loves all touches of on themselves everywhere because it's all wonderful was seen as sort of this primordial narcissistic stage when everything's about them. And babies definitely are that way. If they don't get what they want, they scream and they don't really care about you with in those ways. They can only care about themselves. And so it makes a certain amount of sense in that context. But remember, they those people, Freud in particular, knew essentially nothing. They were they were doing more or less literary criticism on people.
Eric 7:53
On what people said and did.
Dr. Josh Stout 7:55
Yeah, exactly. And so they were using these, these, these myths and these ideas from, from Greek myths, from the idea of, of, you know, pride goeth before a fall and all these ideas of of a dangerous, problematic regard for oneself and then saying this is this is what people are experiencing and because they came up with it at a time when we were discovering the idea of we have these thoughts in our brains and we should name it something. So we'll call it psychology, the study of the brain without really knowing what a brain was. It's just a black box that has thoughts coming out of it. They became this sort of beginning of how we understand many of our ideas about what personalities are and how the brain works and how we talk to ourselves, but without any concept of what's really going on. So we started naming narcissism as any kind of negative trait involving self-regard, but without really ever fully defining it. Because, you know, like, I don't know, like, say, the hero in the hero's journey, you can define it, but it's not a great definition. And the more you define it, the more you're going to find things don't match that definition. So it's a very sort of generalized literary definition that psychologists are pretending is something real. And there are people advocating right now to have it removed from the DSM because it is so generalized. Yeah.
Eric 9:21
It's a slight aside, but it certainly is. If you remember the book Flatland. Mm hmm. Of course. I think that's the one that got it the most. Right. The narcissist was the point. Okay, fair enough. He he didn't. It wasn't that he lived with someone who echoed what he said. Anyone who said anything, he thought it originated from him.
Dr. Josh Stout 9:43
Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so it's a somewhat solipsistic way of looking at the world where everything is contained within yourself and the regard is towards oneself with a long history of in Western culture, of thinking, any regard of the self is, is potentially dangerous.
Eric 10:02
I mean, and we all have that in ourselves. We have to think about ourselves to, to take care of ourselves.
Dr. Josh Stout 10:07
And that's part of the reason why I think they want to remove it from the DSM because it has this sort of cultural baggage to it where, you know, many religions have decided that you can't have any regard for yourself, that you you have to put down anything That's that's nice.
Eric 10:22
How does that really work?
Dr. Josh Stout 10:24
I don't know. I met a, you know, lovely bunch of Mennonites in Oklahoma. And there was this, you know, seven year old kid and really cool looking, bright red cowboy boots. And I looked at him, said, Hey, those are some really nice boots. And he looked at me like I was torturing him with a test. And I realized that that is an actual test they give to each other. And he said, No, not really. They're just okay. And I said, Oh, I see. Right.
Eric 10:54
Those are just average boots. And I don't really like them that much.
Dr. Josh Stout 10:57
No, I wasn't going to get into it because it was just going to get worse and worse.
Eric 11:02
You gave him the evil eye by liking something that he had on him.
Dr. Josh Stout 11:06
Something like that. And and, you know, and this has been within our culture for a long time. So I, Caesar had someone walking next to him whispering things in his ear so he wouldn't think he was too good for himself. Clearly, Brutus and the rest of the senators disagreed.
Eric 11:24
When I lived in Korea, any time you got something good, if you if you bought a new car or you got a new suit, you had to when you came in to work, you had to give everyone a gift.
Dr. Josh Stout 11:36
So there's there's this feeling of of, of not fitting in as being part of narcissism. And that's where I really wanted to get to the sort of neurobiology of it, because I think we are doing many of ourselves a disservice by taking this sort of Freudian story and placing it on what can be actual structural issues within the brain. So there's there's there's there's the brain itself and its structural format, and there's what our upbringing in our culture put on top of it. And there's an interrelationship between the two. Freud could only talk about what's happening within the culture, but now we're starting to understand that there's real physical things happening with the in the brain as well, and I think we've confused some of the aspects of the sort of traditional hubristic idea of narcissism with what is perhaps a neurobiological sort of difficulty in perception of the feelings of others. So, for example, autism might well be very similar in many cases to to to narcissism. And that is very difficult to understand. The feelings of others, to see the feelings of others. How does this play out? And I was thinking particular about some of the some of the pathologies that are associated with changes in neurotransmitters. So ADHD, with low dopamine and the low serotonin being associated with being a psychopath, which is also not a real word. I very, very loaded language getting used in these things. But what what we are starting to understand is that particularly with ADHD and autism, I think I've talked about it in another episode, these things that they call the default mode network.
Eric 13:44
Yes, definitely. These are an episode on the default mode network. Yes. It was fascinating.
Dr. Josh Stout 13:48
So these are these are parts of the brain that when you are daydreaming, your brain starts to think about itself. So it becomes like narcissism is looking at his picture in, you know, his his reflection in the water. But this is a normal thing.
Eric 14:03
How could the brain, not the brain's whole function, is to model the whole world. How could it not Eventually model itself like that?
Dr. Josh Stout 14:09
So so we have task task mode. Essentially, when you are focused on a task and you have default mode, when you are not focused on a task and then.
Eric 14:19
Things still happen.
Dr. Josh Stout 14:20
And the brain doesn't stop using energy when this happens. And so what we think is going on is you're basically going over who you are and you're making who you are. So your relation to each other, your relationship to yourself, your relationship to past events is all being gone over every time. You're not actually doing a task.
When people have ADHD, their default mode network doesn't engage in the way quote unquote normal people do. But people - it's very confusing. There is two descriptions of it. It can both engage too much or too little.
Eric 15:02
When you say it, you mean the default mode network in ADHD people?
Dr. Josh Stout 15:08
ADHD people have a default mode network that is more difficult to differentiate from the task mode network. And so there are two schools of thought on this. One is that ADHD people have a poorly developed default mode network and they're always in task mode or they have a poorly developed task mode network and they're always in default mode. And both of these things are in the literature and describing what is going on and what what's actually seen in the fMRI is the brain imaging shows that there's just very little differentiation, that the way ADHD people think is essentially the way they think, whether they're doing a task or not.
Eric 15:53
It's all woven together.
Dr. Josh Stout 15:53
It's all woven together in a way that's more integrated than it is in other people, which is one of the reasons why I tend to think of ADHD as being both in some ways a pathology in that it's very difficult to accomplish task sometimes because you're not thinking the right way, but also somewhat of a superpower because you have a more integrated relationship between your own understanding of your self and the things you're actually engaged in.
Eric 16:21
If you can get past all the noise to create stuff. Yes.
Dr. Josh Stout 16:26
Right. And so, you know, one one of the tests that they do to look at to see how this is all working is they have these response time tests where you see a little dot and you try and respond very quickly to the dot on the screen. People with ADHD don't do well on this, but also have very high variability. Sometimes they do better than other people. Most of the time they do worse, but there's a huge range within that. Meditation tends to improve this up to a point. So people who are regular meditators also have reduced default mode network activity.
So similarly to some of the things that one might see in, you know, the non neurotypical but with improved response time. So it's losing some of the negative aspects and sort of emphasizing the, the, the more focused part where you're even a little bit faster than normal because now your your, your brain is more integrated with with the task that you're focusing on yourself and the task are integrated together.
Eric 17:33
So, this is ADHD. How does this connect to…
Dr. Josh Stout 17:35
Okay so I was mentioning that the default mode network is something that when there is problems with, in particular during autism, you have a harder time seeing the outside world and seeing other people. And so this can be confused with narcissism.
Eric 17:50
Oh, so that if the default mode network is engaged more than in other people, you will look like you are self-obsessed because you’re…
Dr. Josh Stout 18:00
Actually it’s stranger than that. It's actually it's it's engaged again it's it's both it's both less and more. Yeah. People who are autistic have a hard time understanding other people perhaps because they don't understand themselves because their default mode network where they think about themselves, isn't making the connection that other people are like them.
Eric 18:21
We all know true narcissists and they they're not…
Dr. Josh Stout 18:26
They're not autistic. No, absolutely. So that's this is what I'm trying to get get at is that our societal issues with narcissism often get mapped onto our societal issues with the non neurotypical.
Eric 18:39
Yeah.
Dr. Josh Stout 18:40
So the classic narcissist is often seen as a scientist who doesn't care about his subjects and who thinks they're right no matter what.
Eric 18:50
Okay. I mean, in my mind, the classic narcissist is the is the is the is the person who in the world is respected and highly regarded, but in in their family is… does not care and is not sensitive.
Dr. Josh Stout 19:05
I was doing some research on narcissism and the very earliest definitions specific early involved in an interview with a scientist in the 1930s and described him as narcissistic because he's like, I'm right and you're wrong. And your emotions mean nothing to me and will not influence my experiments. I don't care what I do. And so, you know, this can easily lead to the dark sides of science and goes very well with a lot of non neurotypical scientists out there who have a hard time understanding other people's feelings. [Yes.] And a hard time having that kind of empathy.
Eric 19:40
I could see how non neurotypical people might might go into the sciences. You know, it's a larger number.
Dr. Josh Stout 19:46
It's a frequent occurrence.
Eric 19:48
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Josh Stout 19:50
So I suspect that there is a component to it that is not itself narcissism, but can be viewed as it. And if you get the other psychological things that reward narcissism would be very quickly rewarding it. So if you are well-regarded as a scientist because you have no empathy, this might start pushing your career forward because you will do anything to a kitten.
Eric 20:17
But then the question is, why do you not have any empathy?
Dr. Josh Stout 20:21
Well, you haven't encouraged it, right? So in many in many cases.
Eric 20:25
Or are you saying that there's like there are structural issues in the brain?
Dr. Josh Stout 20:29
I'm saying both. I'm I'm saying that there is a - some people think that you can create narcissists by spending too much time on your children. The more attention you pay in your children, the more narcissistic they all become. Other people say the opposite of that. Some people say we are becoming more narcissistic. I personally see the baby boom as the most narcissistic generation, and we're perhaps doing less and less narcissistic. They were literally known as the “me” generation.
Dr. Josh Stout 20:59
The Bonfire of the Vanities
Eric 21:00
Thing only I don't like about what you're saying is that if it's if it's like ADHD, where there's a structural issue, then then it's not something that like when I when I've encountered narcissists and gotten close to them, I want to blame them for their narcissism. I don’t want them to get a pass. This is an emotional issue on my part.
Dr. Josh Stout 21:18
I think this is something as evolved primates we're on the lookout for. We're evolved to…
Eric 21:24
We have to be.
Dr. Josh Stout 21:25
Keep an eye out for Machiavellian manipulators who don't care about us and want to just move themselves forward.
Eric 21:31
Yes, but it seems like a whole segment of the population seems to have like lost touch with that part of humanity.
Dr. Josh Stout 21:37
They would accuse us of the same thing.
Eric 21:39
I don’t get it. And anyway we’re straying into politics. I’m sorry.
Dr. Josh Stout 21:41
That's what I'm trying not to do.
Eric 21:43
I'm sorry.
Dr. Josh Stout 21:44
So what I'm trying to say is there is this ill defined idea of hubris and narcissism within our culture that we see negatively. And there's something that is real that is happening with the non neurotypical that often gets confused with it. And, you know, certainly I'm ADHD and as a teacher I feel the need to tell people when they are wrong. And I have been accused of being narcissistic because I often immediately tell them when they're wrong without trying to pad it around their feelings. And I've worked at that really hard so that they don't feel bad. But, you know, when I first started out as a T.A., I would correct everything, including grammar and pronunciation and anything I saw my students doing wrong.
Eric 22:34
I bet they loved that.
Dr. Josh Stout 22:36
And they literally came to me and said, You're making me feel small. I'm like, “I’m what?”. And it had never occurred to me that I was actually attacking them.
Eric 22:44
What a what a wonderful thing to learn. Like, that's a great lesson for you as a teacher.
Dr. Josh Stout 22:49
So so this is something that I was prone to with ADHD, but I have, you know, more of a brain than just that.
Eric 22:56
I think that was because of ADHD. You think that other people didn't have this issue.
Dr. Josh Stout 23:01
I think that there are different things going on, that there are people who have self-regard that is on a higher level in the idea of I am the CEO and everyone loves me and I can do no wrong. There are people who move into that pattern because they've been that way their whole lives, perhaps by upbringing, and there are people who have a non neurotypical brain essentially that can lead them in that direction. And if you start reinforcing it. So if both goes together, it's much worse.
Eric 23:36
If they're if they have this predilection and they also become successful, the next thing you know is, you’ve created a monster.
Dr. Josh Stout 23:42
So let me let me give you an example of how we are very, very careful about this without really understanding that we're not careful at all. Okay. So many, many schools now have strong anti-bullying programs and it's really, really important to not bully. And bullies are often seen as narcissists who are picking on people and are threatening them and are dangerous. And so it's often, you know, addressed right away. We have zero tolerance for any any threatening behavior from one person to another. We all have to have empathy for each other. So my son would often get in trouble for, you know, he would be doing his own thing, paying no attention to anyone, and a teacher or another student would come and try and stop him doing his own thing. Well, let's.
Eric 24:29
Let's point out that your son is one of the these like quite non neurotypical.
Dr. Josh Stout 24:34
Yeah. As am I.
Eric 24:37
Right. He’s a little further along the spectrum.
Dr. Josh Stout 24:40
Perhaps and Okay so.
Eric 24:44
So.
Dr. Josh Stout 24:44
He's stepping back just one moment. Step it Stepping back a second. Autism is seen as extremely heritable like something like a 0.6 with a one being 100% heritable and with some of the negative aspects of when you break it down into particular pieces, a point three heritability so very strongly heritable. Yeah. So and this is in twin studies where it's not your upbringing, so identical twin studies, strong heritability, so that he would have something that I have would be likely. Likely. And one of the things that, you know, he has difficulty doing is understanding what other people want to do. So if he's like sitting there playing with something and someone comes in, messes with him and he's minding his own business, he's going to feel attacked immediately. Yeah. And then no one's going to understand the response that he then says, you know, he's like, I'm going to stab you or something. Or, you know, when when he was three years old, someone would try and reach under a table and pull him out because they didn't like him there and he bite them. Yeah, because why would you do that? But people don't understand this things, right?
Eric 25:53
Why would you be under a table. Right.
Dr. Josh Stout 25:55
So anyway, at recess, people had to run out and grab a ball and there was only like four balls. And so there was one group of boys who needed two of these balls for the game they are playing. And Sam got one and someone else got one. So everyone was happy with it. But then they decided they needed another game going. So they said, We need your ball, Sam. And he's like, No, I'm using this. And so they waited until he kicked it and it rolled away. He was still into engaged with it, but they grabbed it as soon as it rolled away and went to play their game. So he's like, Fine, that's the rules we're playing with. He waited until they kicked it and it rolled away and he grabbed the ball, at which point the entire team jumped on top of him and crushed him to the ground. This was not seen as bullying when he was being messed with by a teacher or another student that was seen as bullying by him. But when an entire team, for what it's worth of boys jumped on top of him and sent him to the infirmary, that was not seen as bullying.
Eric 27:05
Well, he ruined their game.
Dr. Josh Stout 27:06
He ruined their game. And so this is this is what I mean by people often confuse narcissism with the way ADHD works. He was seen as being someone who doesn't care about other people, someone who just wants the ball to himself. Someone is being selfish because he doesn't fully understand all of the feelings of all the other people involved. And so they were very justified in hurting him and the school agreed with him. The school did not get any of them in trouble, saw him as having the problem and did not understand that this is actually classical bullying. When you have a whole group of people ganging up on one person, that's what bullying is.
Eric 27:51
Right? But the schools now are set up for one against one.
Dr. Josh Stout 27:54
And so and so they're they're specifically seeking out narcissists who are willing to in some way hurt another person because they don't understand that other person as as being important in some way. And so there's this confusion between what's actual narcissism and what is a you know, a non neurotypical arrangement of not understanding yourself and others in certain ways. And again, I think that there are advantages to the way my brain is put together. I can I understand myself in ways that other people might not be able to. I can focus on things in ways that other people can't do. I'm also very, very distracted, but I notice that when I'm driving, for example, I look at other people's driving and they basically just see what's in front of them. I'm watching 360. I know when the police are miles behind me and I'm getting out of the way and I'm watching the rest of the highway not getting out of the way. So I don't consider myself narcissistic. I'm actually thinking about things in a in a wider sense. But many people would see the way I approach the world As narcissistic.
Eric 29:07
You also…
Eric 29:10
I also have to say, though, that you you know, I have the privilege of having known you for a very long time and you have been working on being a more aware and engaged person your entire life. Back in college, you were not perceived. It was not the same thing. It was all everything was different because you were younger and it was all new. Now this is the outcome of somebody who has been studying how to live.
Dr. Josh Stout 29:42
Well, thank you. Think about someone like some of our presidents. I can see traits in both Bush and Trump that are clearly aligned with not being neurotypical. If you want to do, I'll give you a test on how to test if someone is not neurotypical, ask them to put on a poncho. Look at that scene of of Trump trying to put on a plastic poncho during the inauguration.
Eric 30:10
I don't recall that.
Dr. Josh Stout 30:12
Not Trump. Bush.
Eric 30:13
Yes.
Dr. Josh Stout 30:14
Bush putting I.
Eric 30:14
Don't recall that putting.
Dr. Josh Stout 30:15
On a plastic poncho during the inauguration. He put it on upside down and backwards. He couldn't get it over his head. This is something that is almost universal, like like watching a three year old put on a raincoat. And it is it is a it. Absolutely. Yes. There's a couple of weird absolutes out there for the neurotypical. Why is this? I can't tell you. It's like it's like why do ADHD, ADHD, people like traps. We think about traps a lot.
Eric 30:39
So you're saying.
Dr. Josh Stout 30:40
It's just a.
Eric 30:40
Thing that non neurotypical people have a hard time putting on rain ponchos? Pretty much in general. That's what it is.
Dr. Josh Stout 30:46
It's just a thing that I have noticed. So it's just like spelling. It's like other things that people have problems with.
Eric 30:52
There's one way to do it and you're going to get confused if you're not if you're not neurotypical.
Dr. Josh Stout 30:57
Exactly. And so I've seen this in in many politicians traits like this. Yeah. That I could associate with not being neurotypical. And that is what people tend to attack. Think about how much people attack Trump for his spelling as opposed to his pathologies. I would say there is at least as many issues with his spelling and his grammar and the way he presents himself as there are with his, you know, lack of empathy for others and ability to destroy everything around him.
Eric 31:30
Maybe in the past that was true. But now I think that we just I think I don't think anyone's talking about his spelling, but I see what you're saying.
Dr. Josh Stout 31:37
I very often with his tweets, people bring it up all the time, you know, cup of coffee and all those things.
Eric 31:45
They wouldn't call Co fe fe. Co fe fe. Yes. And but at this point, though, now, though, it's being used is like, well, we know this was actually him. Right. Because we can recognize the mistakes as like. Yes.
Dr. Josh Stout 31:59
What I'm saying is what people tend to attack.
Eric 32:02
Yes.
Dr. Josh Stout 32:03
Is the parts that are the non neurotypical because as a society we don't like difference. Yeah. What people tend to allow is the actual narcissism. We tend to reward that part. And so we're very confused between these two things. The narcissism is the negative part where if someone is having difficulty understanding the feeling of others, but you're raising them up and giving them more and more power so they realize I don't ever have to think about others, that creates a real monster.
Eric 32:36
Right? And whereas we also can't come up with a pill that stops you from thinking about yourself because you need to continue to think about your self in order to survive.
Dr. Josh Stout 32:43
Yeah. And so I spectrum and so, you know, we're, we're aware of this as a society, which is specifically why I think Sam's school said, well, he learned a good lesson there when they all jumped on him. And so we're afraid of narcissists and we tend to blame the non neurotypical. We tend to see the scientist who is, you know, cold and doesn't have a lot of friends and is sitting there working on his mice all the time as the example of the narcissist. In many ways we tend to see the the politician with terrible spelling who can't put on a raincoat as that's the problem. And we'll show that on in the comedy rather than, oh you know Bush is citing memos that allow people to be tortured. We focus almost equally on his inability to like, put on a raincoat. And so we're very, very confused between some of the the non neurotypical aspects of it and the and the actual narcissism.
I wanted to go back a little bit to meditation in relation to the the default mode networks. Meditation also lowers default mode networks where you're not thinking about yourself in quite the same way, but in general at least the story goes encourages empathy and encourages understanding in other people or between people and increases focus and increases reaction time. So there's not just one way to think about how the default mode network is working and what it means. But I would say that it would be very interesting to try and separate out differences in default mode network by people who have actual pathological narcissism, dangerous people, people who have or who are not neurotypical on the spectrum autism, ADHD, there's this whole range where you also have issues with default mode network and then what is it that meditation can do that is dealing with this idea of the default mode network when you're not thinking about yourself all the time, how is that going to address aspects of of what is it seen as narcissism and, you know, this is certainly something I do in my own life every single morning as I'm meditating every single morning. I think it is helping me. But I don't have a control group of me. Yeah, right. And that's always the problem with all of these things is that, you know, when when Freud starts saying narcissists are sexually in love with themselves, which we've now left behind in this whole discussion, you know, this is not I think I think Trump may well be sexually in love with himself.
Eric 35:31
His recent comments.
Dr. Josh Stout 35:32
Yeah, but it's not how he acts. You know, he he he acts like someone who's not actually just like touching his face all the time because he's so in love. Right. He's he's not acting like someone who's, you know, needs to be institutionalized because of the levels of narcissism. But it's certainly very, very different from I someone who's having difficulty with empathy because there say on the on the spectrum and doesn't understand other people's feelings necessarily in the same way. And so we're very confused with these things. I do think narcissism might need to be removed from the DSM. You know, the what the the manual that psychologists use to diagnose people. I, I think is now sort of mired in this idea of of of the Western idea of hubris and the Western idea of pride and understanding these things as as as as negative. And then combining that with what happens when you have a politician who is destroying the world around him because he doesn't care about anything except himself. We were combining these ideas with our societal rejection of people who are not like us in many ways, and we're confused.
Eric 36:49
See, what’s fascinating, though, is that is that you know, it's it's easy to understand the narcissist who is raised up in the terms of the CEO or in terms of the scientist, because those things, you know, have behaviors that would that would elevate those narcissistic tendencies within those fields. But but when you talk about something like politics, where the purpose of it is to improve the lives of the greater number of people and you have a narcissist in there who is not about that in any way. Why is that a popular thing? Why are we going for that if it’s not tending towards the greater good?
Dr. Josh Stout 37:33
One of the interesting things about descriptions of narcissists who are being rewarded for their narcissism to see how the politician is that they're often coming from an outside from an outside situation in some way. So that we knew Trump was terrible in New York, but the rest of the world wasn't seeing it in the same way the rest of the country wasn't seeing it the same way. And so a CEO will often come from outside an organization, take the organization saying, I am going to change everything and I'm great and I'm going to fix everything. And then it doesn't work very well and they often fail and then move on to something else where they're often then rewarded again with a control of another company. And so this this this has happened over and over again. Often it works very well with a leveraged buyout. Okay. So if you're which if you want to destroy a company.
Eric 38:24
This is an effect of our of our non neurodivergent penchant for short term thinking.
Dr. Josh Stout 38:33
Short term thinking…
Eric 38:33
We don't we don't want to think about the long term.
Dr. Josh Stout 38:36
And for a following someone who says.
Eric 38:37
And so therefore we elevate the narcissist who talks to us and says I can get this done now.
Dr. Josh Stout 38:42
Yeah yeah no absolutely. Exactly. So we, we want to be told that this is all going to work right away. And so the classic CEO Narcissist Act is to be hired by his friend bankers who loan him some money to buy a company, strip the assets, pay back the friend bankers and fire everyone. Now there's no company and everyone is made money except for the workers and the town.
Eric 39:05
This is what happened to Red Lobster.
Dr. Josh Stout 39:06
Exactly Yeah, No. So this is a typical thing that can happen when you don't care about the people in your company. Someone who's within a company moving up is not going to behave that way. And the other thing is, it's really easy to manipulate a narcissist. Think about how Putin is manipulating Trump. It's very easy to say you're the best and you're going to continue to be the best if you just do these things that I need you to do, because then everyone will love you. You know, it's you put you his name on the side of a building and he'll do whatever you want. And you attack his his narcissism. And this is what Harris did during the debate. You attack his his crowd sizes and people leaving his crowds and he loses it completely. There are people who do not have control over themselves. And so I want to really separate what can be a I think, a heritable actual condition in the brain that involves certain difficulties relating to other people. And what is absolutely a pathological condition that involves really abusing everyone around you, which is not the same as not understanding everyone around you and that one can lead to the other. But you should not be looking at ADHD people as if they are narcissistic when they, you know, walk past you in a crowd and bump into you and don't say sorry. Right. And that we often treated that way.
Eric 40:27
Well, I mean, something like that, It's it's it's it's the human instinct to say, well, what, what, what what a creep. You just a stranger just bumped into me and kept going without saying a word.
Dr. Josh Stout 40:36
Yeah. No, I've had students who who rush into an elevator on the way to an exam, bumped into someone, rushed out, got to the exam. They're like, Hey, what are you doing? They're like, Hey, I've got to get to the exam. And rush by the student called Security. My security came to my exam room and said, Hey, this kid just, you know, ran into someone and ran out. What's going on? I'm like, What are you talking about? And I realized that what he's talking about was this kid was really worried about the exam and could not see this other person. Yeah, just that person didn't exist in that moment.
Eric 41:06
In their world.
Dr. Josh Stout 41:07
And I had to explain to the security guard that that's what was going on in. The security guard looked at me. So. So they're not like everyone? I'm like, That's correct. And he's like, Oh, and the security guard got it right away. There's people who are not like other people, and they're not there because they're mean and awful people who are purposely plowing people down. But it reads that way to the normal people out there.
Eric 41:32
The guard literally said to you, “Oh, they're not like everyone else”? He actually said that?
Dr. Josh Stout 41:36
I can't tell you the actual words. But yes, there could he be a little different. I'm like, he could be a little different. Yeah. So and that.
Eric 41:45
And that made it okay.
Dr. Josh Stout 41:46
That made it okay. I was like, Yes, he's in here. I'm on top of it. He's Actually. A good guy.
Eric 41:53
In a situation like, like, like a school environment there there are there are caring people who can stop and talk and make these these very subtle differences. But when you're out in the world and.
Dr. Josh Stout 42:08
It's difficult, it's.
Eric 42:09
Almost impossible.
Dr. Josh Stout 42:10
Yeah. Yeah. And so we've we've we've placed this moral issue on top of something that's a it's a brain issue. And so we often attack people who.
Eric 42:20
Could be a brain issue.
Dr. Josh Stout 42:21
Could be a brain issue, but we often attack people who are having the moral issues for the brain issue. And so we attack Bush for his difficulties that are outside of his mission accomplished things.
Eric 42:34
Obvious and easy.
Dr. Josh Stout 42:35
We like what's obvious and easy. And as a culture, we're we're we're very focused on punishing the different. And we see anything outside of the normal as as a problem that needs to be addressed and that you know, piling on. Sam and sending him to the infirmary is a good lesson that he needed to learn. And we we really see this as.
Eric 43:00
And although I don't agree with it, it is a good lesson he needed to learn because he needs to understand that if there's 20 kids playing with a ball, even if he thinks he's right, even if he is right, if he takes it, that will happen. That will happen again.
Dr. Josh Stout 43:16
So this is exactly the kind of stuff that people with this brain issue are not going to learn.
Eric 43:22
Right. And then so your point is that that was not a lesson.
Dr. Josh Stout 43:25
That was not a lesson at all. It was just bullying. And this this happens all the time. You know, that people are constantly punished on behalf of society for doing something that they did not understand was attacking society. Yeah, you know, so in boarding school, I didn't make my bed, which meant that I got a point off on inspection, which meant that my dorm wasn't going to get pizza that Friday. So the dorm master had the students grab a garbage can and like, a full sized garbage can and dump it on my bed as a lesson to me. I understand what they did. I still don't see that as something that was in any way a useful lesson that was bullying.
Eric 44:21
This is an old this is, you know, one person in the in the platoon does something wrong. Everyone has to do 40 push ups.
Dr. Josh Stout 44:27
Right. And so this this is a way that we often train ourselves. So, you know, when I got into theater, I would be reading a book and the the the, the… the lighting design guy would steal my book because I was acting differently and I wasn't being part of the group. And I was you know, I was I was an assistant stage manager. We're sitting there in between things. I just would open my book and read it, put it down, walk away and do stuff, come back, my books gone because I'm being punished for being different. And so this is very much something that we have as part of our society.
Eric 45:05
We we think that we think that if we punish the different ones that they’ll stay in line.
Dr. Josh Stout 45:09
They'll stay in line and they will learn. So we see this as an antidote to narcissism. Reading a book is is going into your own head. You're not part of the group anymore. And this is what I'm trying to say, is that I think that we've confused some of the moral issues with being a monster, with the actual brain issues that are heritable and need to be addressed and can lead one in that direction. So if you if you have a difficulty understanding the emotions of others and you're put in charge of things and told you're great when you do it and there's no repercussions for anything you do, you could end understand ending up being like someone like Trump. But there are a whole bunch of people who don't go in that direction, you know? So that's what that's one of the thing about being non neurotypical, overrepresented in the sciences and in jail. These are these are people who have a difficult time, but if they can find their way, they can do very, very well.
Eric 46:07
But then there are also people who are just entitled and mean.
Dr. Josh Stout 46:12
Yes. And they have nothing to do with the non-neurotypical. And so they and they are just working a system in a way that is going to benefit them and they're not going to be noticed in the same way because they don't stick out. So, you know, J.D. Vance, I think has a lot of the narcissism stuff where he is willing to say anything. He'll say Trump is Hitler one day and Trump is my best friend the next day because it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care at all. Trump I do not. So yeah. So. Vance In no way is non neurotypical. He is extremely neurotypical. You know, he, he, he, he, he did very, very well in school, has done very, very well understanding what other people want, understanding other people and manipulating them. Yes. And I think he's being a narcissist in that, engaging with other people way that some people don't have the ability to do. And I think he's actually more dangerous because of that and in some ways because he actually understands what other people are feeling and is using that against them.
Eric 47:11
Well, I mean, the basis of of my fear of him is that when once Trump is gone, we literally don't know what we will have with him. You know.
Dr. Josh Stout 47:19
He would he would say anything and do anything.
Eric 47:21
He could be anything.
Dr. Josh Stout 47:21
Rght. But I think he he has a a more classical, more dangerous, more camouflaged version of narcissism.
Eric 47:32
Yeah, I was scared of Pence. I'm I'm I'm not it's like I'm like, oh, that was nothing. Nothing compared to the fear of JD Vance.
Dr. Josh Stout 47:37
That was nothing. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this, this I guess was was where I really wanted to go with this is that we've, we've pathologized something that is essentially a moral question, our responsibility to others and we've conflated it in many ways with something where people actually have a neurological difficulty understanding their relationship to get the world around them, essentially, because if your tasks and your sense of self are not differentiated, well, it becomes difficult to see yourself outside of anything and to see yourself in other things. And I think this is this is what might be happening with a lot of non neurotypical people.
Eric 48:34
I mean, this is this is a lot of your your message throughout, which is that we need to be more aware and sensitive to each other because we don't know what's going on with with I mean, there's no way to know if somebody bumps into you. Is it because they want it to hurt you or is it because they’re in their own head and you have no way of knowing that.
Dr. Josh Stout 48:50
And so when we see people who are clearly dangerous to the world because of their narcissism, we shouldn't be focusing on the things that look like. Yes, ADHD.
Eric 49:03
Yes. Yes. Well, the media has kind of helped us with that, although they're there, it's a little late, but they're refocusing. But I mean, that that was that was really it's much more entertaining to focus on the things that look like ADHD than the things that are actually dangerous. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Stout 49:16
And I think we do need to be careful about people who have, you know, a non neurotypical brain on how we raise them and how we form people in our society. So they can be top scientists and not go to jail. Right.
But it's not through bullying. Bullying is not the answer. And it's often what we use and we don't even see it. We have to understand that a whole bunch of people picking on one person is bullying.
Eric 49:46
Yes. And I and I you know, I have to say at this point that right now this entire conversation is moot unless everyone gets out and votes. Because seriously, because otherwise, if the election goes in one direction, we're going to be living in a world of bullying. It's just going to be bullying. The only way that we begin to deal with this issue that you're talking about is to is to vote in the correct way where we actually have the opportunity to care about others.
Dr. Josh Stout 50:15
I guess So it certainly seems to be one of the ethos of the of the the own the Libs kind of approach to macho Republicanism is we must crush all opposition and only think about ourselves. And physical strength matters more than anything else.
Eric 50:37
It’s a party of narcissism.
Dr. Josh Stout 50:38
It's really, you know led by it's narcissistic chief.
Eric 50:43
Right. But it's also I mean, you've talked about this you've talked we talked about this for years since the Bush since Bush 43, We've been talking helping people is hurting people. This this this this Republican theme of helping people is hurting people. Like you've been talking about this for years and years.
Dr. Josh Stout 51:03
And it's exactly that same kind of sort of societal bullying when someone is left behind. The best lesson you can have is just let them hurt until they figure their way out of it. And, you know, you should you should just throw them out on their own.
Eric 51:16
And I hate to I hate to be talking political slogans, but it really is time to turn the page on that. Like this is this is what this is what you've been talking about. You know, for this entire time on this podcast is that we need we need to help each other.
Dr. Josh Stout 51:30
We absolutely do. And, you know, I think we have an obligation to do it. And I think we have not been meeting that obligation. And, you know, we we we do not get together as groups and figure out what we need for the people in the group to succeed. Yeah, we often do the exact opposite. We get together as groups and we figure out how to single out people and make sure they don't succeed and that that is in many ways our approach to anyone that is different.
Eric 51:58
It makes it makes it really easy to define the group.
Dr. Josh Stout 52:01
Yeah, exactly. So we we have a tendency to consider ourselves to be anti-narcissistic when we're actually being bullies in many ways.
Eric 52:13
Isn't that convenient?
Dr. Josh Stout 52:14
Yeah. And, you know, I, I certainly saw very early on all the attacks on Trump spelling as essentially bullying by the media.
Eric 52:22
Well, that's fascinating.
Dr. Josh Stout 52:22
Even even though.
Eric 52:24
It never even occurred to me a bit.
Dr. Josh Stout 52:25
Even though he was as bad as you could be and that needed to be addressed, the parts that were being focused on were often the parts were you know, I was I was quite sensitive to how people were attacking.
Eric 52:39
Well, you know, I mean, the first person who said this out loud that I can remember was Rachel Maddow. She said, don't look at what they say. Look at what they do. Like, stop looking at what's written. Stop looking at what they're saying and start looking what's happening.
Dr. Josh Stout 52:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And narcissists are able to work that group bullying dynamic so they'll they'll lead the group to attack on masterfully and they're often not the ADHD people they're the ones who are the the true narcissists who don't have a you know, brain issue with understanding other people. They understand people very well. And so it's how they're organizing the group to attack someone. And I actually would see, you know, Vance doing that more than Trump.
Eric 53:18
Well, but Trump does it.
Dr. Josh Stout 53:20
He also does it. Yeah.
Eric 53:21
Beat the hell out of them.
Dr. Josh Stout 53:21
Well, I mean and absolutely. But but but he doesn't care who that person is at all. Whereas Vance would, would would know. I think a little bit about that person that they're being attacked anyway this is just my imagination. But I really wanted to separate out these ideas that are, that are not well understood within psychology. We're just telling a story about narcissism that I think is, you know, associated with the whole Judeo-Christian ethos and Greek hubris and morality, and that there's actually something that's happening with some people's brains that is is a separate issue and could be conflate it with it and really shouldn't be.
Eric 54:01
I hope that we can use this information and move forward with it in our social interactions because it would certainly be helpful. Yeah, Well, thank you, Josh. Thank you. All right, folks, until next time.
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